And I realise that for most people 5.30am in the morning or whatever stupid time I published this post is way too early to contemplate such matters, but such is my head early doors😂😂😂
I don’t know where the quote comes from but, for me, it sets up a false opposition. Surely pain is the opposite of pleasure? Do purposeful people pursue pain? No, they take pleasure in their sense of purpose (have I just written a tongue twister?). I call for purposeful pleasure seeking.
The ancient Greeks were all over this, of course. Even the Hedonists recognised the inevitability of pain in the unbridled pursuit of pleasure (e.g. the hangover, the bloated gut) and saw the need for moderation. The Epicureans expanded on this by recognising that bodily pleasure has its limits. The highest form of sustained pleasure they could envisage was “friendship” (very different from Satre’s existentialist take that “Hell is other people”). Friendship doesn’t just fall into your lap. It takes effort and compromise and the Purpose to not permanently piss people off.
Yes, religions have stuck their oar in. Flood myths tend to be about building a strong foundation, an ark that can weather the storm (because there is always a storm). Deferred gratification as a survival tool. They’re not wrong - and they are also not necessarily saying you can’t take pleasure in building your ark or that you can’t learn to surfboard too. Some of them get a bit weird with the asceticism and self-flagellation, but they’re probably secretly enjoying it too so they’re still pleasure seeking, just with a dollop of dishonesty.
Pleasure is cool. It should never be guilty, but we should also be as purposeful as we can be, in order that our pursuit of pleasure does not cause undue pain to ourselves or others.
I don’t know where it came from either because it was just on a Facebook Meme (deep😂😂).
It’s a good point you make.
I suppose when I first read it I started thinking of the idea about the devil finding work for idle hands to do and how it feeds into that belief too.
It touched a nerve with me greatly too because I have always felt very directionless, without purpose so felt the need to defend this😂😂😂
Another one of the points I was trying to make was that pleasure needn’t always be of the material or bodily variety and that the simple ones such as enjoying nature or art are just as valid and worth pursuing.
It’s interesting as well how we differentiate between pleasure and happiness isn’t it? There is an acceptance that pleasures are short term states, whilst everyone wants to attain a constant state of happiness.
You? Without purpose? But you’re a poet! I suppose we see ourselves very differently with our own eyes but you certainly appear to be someone with “agency”. If there is any sort of divine plan for any of us, we kind of risk blowing it by knowing it.
Yes, it’s kind of odd how appreciation of nature, art, music, etc get separated off from food, sex and TV etc - they are all “sensual” pleasures after all. Perhaps because some require less intellectual or emotional engagement - although dance and sport can occupy some sort of mid ground.
Purpose for many is finding their niche where they can serve others. A personal example is as a father, husband, engineer, rugby player, friend etc. This can be characterised as vocation. By and large, this is where pleasure is found too.
Might be worth reading about the Victorian Work Ethic. Having a strong work ethic rather than pursuing life’s pleasures was indoctrinated during these years.
Simple pleasures. I like it. Bit once doctrinated to feel bad about feeling good it's a daily struggle to ALLOW myself to feel good about enjoying myself, I'm alot better at it than I was 6 years ago
I think the older we grow, the more those simple pleasures come into their own. I can take joy in such basic things these days. The other day I was just getting into rolling and squeezing coffee grounds in my hands. Yes I know, I’m weird 😂😂😂
The phrase does have a sense of religious dogma, doesn't it? Austere. Like all such wide generalisations I think it hides a grain of truth, but it's fairly well accepted that work (or purpose) is good for people, as are relaxation, stimulation, social activities etc. A good balance of all of these is a recipe for contentment I would think.
I think as a couple of other people have pointed out/alluded to, if you are lucky enough to be able to know your purpose and take pleasure in that, then that is a very fortunate position to be in.
Yes I agree about work being good for people. That’s very well documented. So long as it is enjoyable of meaningful work. Is ‘any’ work good for people? Not so sure about that.
Certainly I observe the difference in older people I know who carry on doing some form of work (paid or voluntary) after retirement age and those who don’t.
I think it is very important that work should be meaningful and adequately remunerated. Unfortunately we seem to be a long way off from that as a society. I once read an interesting book by the brilliant anarchist anthropologist David Graeber: "Bullshit Jobs: A Theory." In it he cites examples of people who had well-paid jobs that they found so lacking in meaning that they gave them up to pursue jobs that were not as well-paid, but more satisfying.
I have taken pay cuts for nicer jobs. Certainly the last job (employed not own business) I had, I did this . I purposely opted for a lower wage with better conditions. I am not a materialist at all.
I think the voluntary sector are often exploited. Certainly I see with Councils and Rail companies relying on volunteers to tend to their flower arrangements to save on money.
I agree, if you have enough to meet your needs it has to be better for you to do work that you enjoy.
Without the voluntary sector and volunteers in general plugging the gaps our social structures would collapse. Essential services being run on good will.
Yes. The psychotic need to control the population goes back a long way.
It’s got really skewed lately though as they seem to be actively encouraging those who practice really offensive pleasures, whilst removing the simple, innocent pleasures most of us enjoy.
This is what I see when I look at history. People coerced away from simple pleasures by the attraction of having material goods or easy sex (often bought with money).
And I realise that for most people 5.30am in the morning or whatever stupid time I published this post is way too early to contemplate such matters, but such is my head early doors😂😂😂
Happy Friday 😍😘
As I read your post I was thinking “this is a bit deep and complicated for early morning before work” 😁 Made me think though, so thank you 🙏
I always have my most rambling thoughts early hours. My mind is very chatty😂😂😂
I don’t know where the quote comes from but, for me, it sets up a false opposition. Surely pain is the opposite of pleasure? Do purposeful people pursue pain? No, they take pleasure in their sense of purpose (have I just written a tongue twister?). I call for purposeful pleasure seeking.
The ancient Greeks were all over this, of course. Even the Hedonists recognised the inevitability of pain in the unbridled pursuit of pleasure (e.g. the hangover, the bloated gut) and saw the need for moderation. The Epicureans expanded on this by recognising that bodily pleasure has its limits. The highest form of sustained pleasure they could envisage was “friendship” (very different from Satre’s existentialist take that “Hell is other people”). Friendship doesn’t just fall into your lap. It takes effort and compromise and the Purpose to not permanently piss people off.
Yes, religions have stuck their oar in. Flood myths tend to be about building a strong foundation, an ark that can weather the storm (because there is always a storm). Deferred gratification as a survival tool. They’re not wrong - and they are also not necessarily saying you can’t take pleasure in building your ark or that you can’t learn to surfboard too. Some of them get a bit weird with the asceticism and self-flagellation, but they’re probably secretly enjoying it too so they’re still pleasure seeking, just with a dollop of dishonesty.
Pleasure is cool. It should never be guilty, but we should also be as purposeful as we can be, in order that our pursuit of pleasure does not cause undue pain to ourselves or others.
I don’t know where it came from either because it was just on a Facebook Meme (deep😂😂).
It’s a good point you make.
I suppose when I first read it I started thinking of the idea about the devil finding work for idle hands to do and how it feeds into that belief too.
It touched a nerve with me greatly too because I have always felt very directionless, without purpose so felt the need to defend this😂😂😂
Another one of the points I was trying to make was that pleasure needn’t always be of the material or bodily variety and that the simple ones such as enjoying nature or art are just as valid and worth pursuing.
It’s interesting as well how we differentiate between pleasure and happiness isn’t it? There is an acceptance that pleasures are short term states, whilst everyone wants to attain a constant state of happiness.
You? Without purpose? But you’re a poet! I suppose we see ourselves very differently with our own eyes but you certainly appear to be someone with “agency”. If there is any sort of divine plan for any of us, we kind of risk blowing it by knowing it.
Yes, it’s kind of odd how appreciation of nature, art, music, etc get separated off from food, sex and TV etc - they are all “sensual” pleasures after all. Perhaps because some require less intellectual or emotional engagement - although dance and sport can occupy some sort of mid ground.
Cheers.
I’ve been having one of those ‘Can’t write anything’ weeks.
Yes maybe we try to overthink the *point* of ourselves, our ‘raison d'etre‘.
I know I am guilty of that certainly.
Purpose for many is finding their niche where they can serve others. A personal example is as a father, husband, engineer, rugby player, friend etc. This can be characterised as vocation. By and large, this is where pleasure is found too.
Yes I have always envied that ability to enjoy serving others, I must admit.
Might be worth reading about the Victorian Work Ethic. Having a strong work ethic rather than pursuing life’s pleasures was indoctrinated during these years.
Yes. I wonder how far back it all goes and if it was all about controlling people by belittling and degrading the pleasures they took.
Simple pleasures. I like it. Bit once doctrinated to feel bad about feeling good it's a daily struggle to ALLOW myself to feel good about enjoying myself, I'm alot better at it than I was 6 years ago
I think the older we grow, the more those simple pleasures come into their own. I can take joy in such basic things these days. The other day I was just getting into rolling and squeezing coffee grounds in my hands. Yes I know, I’m weird 😂😂😂
The phrase does have a sense of religious dogma, doesn't it? Austere. Like all such wide generalisations I think it hides a grain of truth, but it's fairly well accepted that work (or purpose) is good for people, as are relaxation, stimulation, social activities etc. A good balance of all of these is a recipe for contentment I would think.
I think as a couple of other people have pointed out/alluded to, if you are lucky enough to be able to know your purpose and take pleasure in that, then that is a very fortunate position to be in.
Yes I agree about work being good for people. That’s very well documented. So long as it is enjoyable of meaningful work. Is ‘any’ work good for people? Not so sure about that.
Certainly I observe the difference in older people I know who carry on doing some form of work (paid or voluntary) after retirement age and those who don’t.
I think it is very important that work should be meaningful and adequately remunerated. Unfortunately we seem to be a long way off from that as a society. I once read an interesting book by the brilliant anarchist anthropologist David Graeber: "Bullshit Jobs: A Theory." In it he cites examples of people who had well-paid jobs that they found so lacking in meaning that they gave them up to pursue jobs that were not as well-paid, but more satisfying.
I have taken pay cuts for nicer jobs. Certainly the last job (employed not own business) I had, I did this . I purposely opted for a lower wage with better conditions. I am not a materialist at all.
I think the voluntary sector are often exploited. Certainly I see with Councils and Rail companies relying on volunteers to tend to their flower arrangements to save on money.
I agree, if you have enough to meet your needs it has to be better for you to do work that you enjoy.
Without the voluntary sector and volunteers in general plugging the gaps our social structures would collapse. Essential services being run on good will.
Yes. The psychotic need to control the population goes back a long way.
It’s got really skewed lately though as they seem to be actively encouraging those who practice really offensive pleasures, whilst removing the simple, innocent pleasures most of us enjoy.
This is what I see when I look at history. People coerced away from simple pleasures by the attraction of having material goods or easy sex (often bought with money).