Although I think it’s all bollocks, it does seem insane that a Union Jack or (in your case) St Andrews cross should be such a big deal. In America you see the national flag everywhere, by mailboxes, in schools…. If people want to fly it, good luck to em.
My town is so left I can’t see em going for it. They’re more the Alphabet/Palestine flag types but my son’s dad has seen them out in nearby towns he works in.🙄😮💨
I totally concur. Personally I am born in England of Scottish parents with an Irish/ Scottish/ Celtic surname, Grandmother was a Bruce. I used to play rugby for Welsh expat club. British I suppose so. Not singularly patriotic or nationalistic. But I do believe in being proud of the culture you come from. Leave patriotism and flags for the sports field and focus on what we share.
I agree with the false flag idea and the political hijacking that is going on. It's right to feel dubious about raise the flag campaign which could be used to trigger civil war which right wing alternative media keeps banging on about. The problem with the flags is that they could signify so many different things for different people supporting it. It could be simple patriotism, wanting pride back in the country, a MAGA-like reaction against wokeness, international no-borders-socialism, and forced multiculturalism. It could be throwing down the gauntlet to Islam or a reaction to cultural erasure, genocide and replacement. With mums and dads, the flags might be for rallying against a government that is actively putting their daughters in harm's way. Flags could be a protest against the uni-party, which creates the same social and economic problems. So many different things. I feel for mums and dads and women worried about physical safety - the Uk is rapidly going Sweden's way with a horrific rise in sexual crime. The Epping mums are calling for what you suggest, Julie, withholding of council tax. As you say this is the way to go. Rather than this too diffuse and easy-to-hijack flag waving, it needs to be grass roots and practical - 'shut this asylum hotel down. It's dangerous. We don't want it here.' right across the country. Also say 'no to mass immigration' without making it just an English, Scottish or Welsh flag thing. Then, you could get Sikhs, Hindus, other ethnic minorities on board who are not flag waving but equally concerned about the NHS, social housing lists and masses of incomers with incompatible attitudes who are not being vetted properly creating a public safety risk. As for civil disobedience, it could yield results. Ultimately, though, I believe this is a spiritual battle, that's not going to be won politically - 'For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but ... against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.' Ephesians 6:12. It's a millennia old empire. Please excuse the long post.
I am happy you wrote such a detailed comment Hamish. It is a topic with lots of nuance and deserves wider dissection.
I think you are right in what you said/alluded to that if it became a ‘No to mass immigration’ thing rather than a flag thing, more people of colour would feel better about getting behind it.
When I see a group of all white protesters then it troubles me. Do those of other colours think they are not welcome? Certainly many have similar concerns. This is why the racist undertones of this campaign worry me somewhat. That said, when I see a person of colour among them, I curse their naivety thinking “you’ll be next on the target list”. What a mess!
Thanks, Julie. It certainly is pretty complex. We agree that we need to unite with ethnic minorities. There has been an attack against the indigenous white population in sneaky ways, but the egg can't be unscrambled to return it to 95% white, but many ethnic minorities love the values of the country and don't want them undermined by bringing in uneducated hordes with fundamentalist ideas, so they should be kept on side. A truly united front of white and non-white Brits could be a force to be reckoned with. As you say, I hope they don't start picking them off. BTW, on the question of poor Afghans, Somalis, etc. invest in their countries like the Chinese do, developing infrastructure and creating work. What the West does instead is derail projects like Belt and Road, which really help develop developing countries.
Just seen this comment now. Unsure why it didn’t tell me about it.
Yes, it’s all about working with the situation we have now and not looking to demonise any race or religion.
What are Belt and Road? Excuse my ignorance there.
I wouldn’t want to wish a Chinese style regime on anyone, they may be strong as a nation but that has come at a phenomenal cost to the individuals and their freedoms.
Belt and Road is an infrastructure project. China is building roads, bridges, even railway track across Asia. The point I was making about it is that unlike the west it is a softer projection of power. The West, US in particular is more extractive and exploitative (:"Confessions of an Economic Hit Man") exposes this). As for it being authoritarian, it is in many respects, but the UK is going that way too - getting arrested for Tweets or being deemed to be supportive of HAMAS. It was a lot freer when I first went to China in 2008 when you didn't need a VPN to access You Tube or Facebook. The Social Credit Score thing is hyped. My Chinese colleagues weren't subject to it and people generally weren't getting denied the ability to travel and so on. Unlike other Western countries I manage to avoid the Convid vax -I wasn't obliged to take it. China was free of wokery too which I appreciated.
Firstly, the protests have so many white faces because the UK is 86% white. Not just that, the next group, South Asians, are the least integrated and more often than not fly their own flags for their communities. These flags are often officially promoted and celebrated, such as the Pakistan flag last week being put up over Birmingham library last week. Black people make up 3% of the country, despite the media over-representation. The make up of the protests should not trouble you.
Secondly, what is a community? A street, a village, a town, a city, a country - they are ownership. They require responsibility and obligations. This is what shapes them. It is why the UK was so different to Japan, and both so different to Islamabad. I don’t believe we are just citizens of the world. We are different - shaped by and shaping the community around us. The problem is when people coming into a country/community are prioritised over the community that made it. That is the preferential treatment with welfare and resources, that is the two-tier policing, that is the villainization of British culture over the cultures of others. When the migration numbers are 10m to a country of 58m since the year 2000, that amplifies the problems.
When my Civil Service workplace is draped in flags of Palestine and Pakistan for months, and the first Flag of the Union or the Cross of St George comes with a disciplinary threat - something is very wrong.
Thanks for adding your view point to the mix. I would like to think that the overly white turnout was representative of the ethnic mix of the UK but I have my doubts. I absolutely agree on the last point, something is wrong when flags of other countries are encouraged yet not our own national one. Sadly, I associate that with how it has been misused by those with less honourable motives over the years.
In the UK, black people make up 3% - Asians 11%. I would argue that Asians at the moment are the favoured group so would not be likely to be in these protests. They are also the least likely to integrate (often because of religion). Their flags are prioritised so wouldn't be part of this movement. It's really unfair to point to flag misuse. We don't really tolerate discrimination against minority groups - racists are a tiny group. The flags are mainly used by patriots and sports fans.
Agreed especially about the land. Problem is everyone is saying it should be like this or like that etc. We've all got an opinion but things don't move on. We need to accept that we humans don't love enough, are greedy and very aggressive. Our chickens are just starting to come home to roost but stop...switch the TV on and we know we're doing our best to sort things out by making more cars, providing more arms to our friends to kill the nasty people (the ones we don't like who are trying to stop us from stealing their land and from ramping up production etc). Lost? Not everyone but they can be weedled out and crushed.
I’m busy on my own little Operation Disrupt. Informing and leafleting the hotel protesters about what that patriotic BritPop BritCard is really about. It’s going very well and these active awakening folk seem to be up for joining the next few dots.
I watched that film when it came out and thought it very good.
London? The big protest?
Much as I don’t see these protests as doing any good any more and rather fuelling greater tension, what you propose doing sounds more constructive - getting among people (hopefully on both sides) and giving them information to see the bigger picture and how they are all being played.
Yes, that's right. Good luck with your project. It's a very, very big mountain to climb. I'm more of a grass roots (right terminology?) man. I like to talk to people locally and see if I can get them to appreciate what's really going on. Who knows?
I completely relate Julie with your thinking about land ownership. 💖
My husband is Native American and close to his Cherokee roots, so I’ve learned a lot from these beautiful indigenous people. ✨
Native Americans viewed land differently than Europeans. They saw it as a communal resource, deeply connected to their spirituality. Their way of life emphasized community, seasonal use, and sustainability, making individual ownership less practical. For many, land was a sacred gift from the Creator, meant to be respected and shared, not owned.
I have always felt affinity with Native Americans. What an awesome heritage your husband has. Yes I definitely think I should have been born one - it feels like how we were meant to live, taking only what we need and living by season.
Randy and I don't salute flags 🫡 for the reasons discussed in your article. We do stand and face the flag out of respect when it's being honored, but we don’t put our hands over our hearts or recite a memorized acknowledgment to it.
I confess that the sight of the flags flying from lampposts in our small city made me smile. I think the majority of people in this country welcome them, not because we're racist, but because we're sick and tired of being told how awful we are, how privileged we are and how we should be ashamed of ourselves and our country. The group that put them up have already distanced themselves from the group protesting outside the hotel housing the 'boat people '.
I'm aware that an element are trying to divide us (what's new?), but to see these flags fluttering in the breeze, made me smile.
I don’t think this is a grassroots organic movement but rather, a directed one. My hope is that anyone raising them has at least given that aspect of things some thought.
AFAIK it's called 'guerrilla marketing'. It's been used loads of times to generate popular enthusiasm for something new, e.g. the Beatles, Red Bull, etc. An early example was more than a century ago when Edward Bernays got women to smoke cigarettes.
I agree wholeheartedly about land. It's a resource like air and water than everyone has free access to, or should do.
Yes it’s a shame. I always feel i should have been born a Native American Indian (fuck knows if that’s PC, do I care?😉😂). Just roaming the land, looking at stars and recounting dreams 😂
They are deliberately concentrating on ‘small boats’ because of the compelling and emotive visual aspect, for anyone concerned about immigration, these are (excuse the pun) a drop in the ocean when seen as part of the overall figures.
Farage and others deliberately concentrate on this whilst not really talking about other forms of immigration, which is much higher.
Those furthest right on the subject will not be satisfied with an end to ‘small boats’, they will want everyone not born here deported.
Small boats, indeed make good optics to create anger, represent part of immigration which overall is low compared to 2000 in the UK as well as low compared to other countries. In 2021 small boats represented about half of total asylum seeking of overall, about 20,000 of 40,000, which itself was about half that of 2002 which was 80,000.
Legal immigration of course includes many white people which no one is worried about. The right would like everyone who is not white to be deported.
I think that might be true of some of the right (that it’s all about white immigration) but not all of them. As with any political ‘side’, there are many nuances.
Totally. Banning Union Jacks in work places for example will just get the backs up of all those forced by policy to accept the LBGTQ ones imposed on many a workplace.
The marchers for Palestine are protesting the British government's own complicity, funding and military intelligence support for the racist white settler colonist apartheid regime in Israel; who are currently brutalising the indigenous Palestinians. How else are people meant to express their disagreement with their own country's actions? Why should this be seen as 'bloody', or annoying or useless? Why would anyone who wasn't part of the white western patriarchal interests in fossil fuels etc want to ban such protest?
One reason the 'Israeli war machine' won't be stopped is because our country's governments and media are complicit in it. I was making the point, and commenting on the comment that you were, that marching for Palestine in the UK is therefore not irrelevant nor necessarily ineffectual.
The old divide and conquer still going strong..
Indeed
Only one so far..
You’d think it was a nazi flag the way some are going on about it
Whilst few years back they happily did for nippy Nicola
People are so easily played
Although I think it’s all bollocks, it does seem insane that a Union Jack or (in your case) St Andrews cross should be such a big deal. In America you see the national flag everywhere, by mailboxes, in schools…. If people want to fly it, good luck to em.
Unfortunately the Union Jack / Irish flag up here represents sectarianism to a lot..
Crazy a piece of cloth can say so much
Operation fly the flag has hit our street today..
Has started so many arguments among neighbours
( Eyes rolling back in head so far I can’t see) 🙄
My town is so left I can’t see em going for it. They’re more the Alphabet/Palestine flag types but my son’s dad has seen them out in nearby towns he works in.🙄😮💨
I totally concur. Personally I am born in England of Scottish parents with an Irish/ Scottish/ Celtic surname, Grandmother was a Bruce. I used to play rugby for Welsh expat club. British I suppose so. Not singularly patriotic or nationalistic. But I do believe in being proud of the culture you come from. Leave patriotism and flags for the sports field and focus on what we share.
We need to find ways of coming together.
I agree with the false flag idea and the political hijacking that is going on. It's right to feel dubious about raise the flag campaign which could be used to trigger civil war which right wing alternative media keeps banging on about. The problem with the flags is that they could signify so many different things for different people supporting it. It could be simple patriotism, wanting pride back in the country, a MAGA-like reaction against wokeness, international no-borders-socialism, and forced multiculturalism. It could be throwing down the gauntlet to Islam or a reaction to cultural erasure, genocide and replacement. With mums and dads, the flags might be for rallying against a government that is actively putting their daughters in harm's way. Flags could be a protest against the uni-party, which creates the same social and economic problems. So many different things. I feel for mums and dads and women worried about physical safety - the Uk is rapidly going Sweden's way with a horrific rise in sexual crime. The Epping mums are calling for what you suggest, Julie, withholding of council tax. As you say this is the way to go. Rather than this too diffuse and easy-to-hijack flag waving, it needs to be grass roots and practical - 'shut this asylum hotel down. It's dangerous. We don't want it here.' right across the country. Also say 'no to mass immigration' without making it just an English, Scottish or Welsh flag thing. Then, you could get Sikhs, Hindus, other ethnic minorities on board who are not flag waving but equally concerned about the NHS, social housing lists and masses of incomers with incompatible attitudes who are not being vetted properly creating a public safety risk. As for civil disobedience, it could yield results. Ultimately, though, I believe this is a spiritual battle, that's not going to be won politically - 'For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but ... against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.' Ephesians 6:12. It's a millennia old empire. Please excuse the long post.
I am happy you wrote such a detailed comment Hamish. It is a topic with lots of nuance and deserves wider dissection.
I think you are right in what you said/alluded to that if it became a ‘No to mass immigration’ thing rather than a flag thing, more people of colour would feel better about getting behind it.
When I see a group of all white protesters then it troubles me. Do those of other colours think they are not welcome? Certainly many have similar concerns. This is why the racist undertones of this campaign worry me somewhat. That said, when I see a person of colour among them, I curse their naivety thinking “you’ll be next on the target list”. What a mess!
Thanks, Julie. It certainly is pretty complex. We agree that we need to unite with ethnic minorities. There has been an attack against the indigenous white population in sneaky ways, but the egg can't be unscrambled to return it to 95% white, but many ethnic minorities love the values of the country and don't want them undermined by bringing in uneducated hordes with fundamentalist ideas, so they should be kept on side. A truly united front of white and non-white Brits could be a force to be reckoned with. As you say, I hope they don't start picking them off. BTW, on the question of poor Afghans, Somalis, etc. invest in their countries like the Chinese do, developing infrastructure and creating work. What the West does instead is derail projects like Belt and Road, which really help develop developing countries.
Just seen this comment now. Unsure why it didn’t tell me about it.
Yes, it’s all about working with the situation we have now and not looking to demonise any race or religion.
What are Belt and Road? Excuse my ignorance there.
I wouldn’t want to wish a Chinese style regime on anyone, they may be strong as a nation but that has come at a phenomenal cost to the individuals and their freedoms.
Belt and Road is an infrastructure project. China is building roads, bridges, even railway track across Asia. The point I was making about it is that unlike the west it is a softer projection of power. The West, US in particular is more extractive and exploitative (:"Confessions of an Economic Hit Man") exposes this). As for it being authoritarian, it is in many respects, but the UK is going that way too - getting arrested for Tweets or being deemed to be supportive of HAMAS. It was a lot freer when I first went to China in 2008 when you didn't need a VPN to access You Tube or Facebook. The Social Credit Score thing is hyped. My Chinese colleagues weren't subject to it and people generally weren't getting denied the ability to travel and so on. Unlike other Western countries I manage to avoid the Convid vax -I wasn't obliged to take it. China was free of wokery too which I appreciated.
Thank you. I shall have a Google on that, Hamish.
Your views on China are interesting.
Just googled and have put link on for anyone else who is interested
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belt_and_Road_Initiative
I like the raising of the flags.
Firstly, the protests have so many white faces because the UK is 86% white. Not just that, the next group, South Asians, are the least integrated and more often than not fly their own flags for their communities. These flags are often officially promoted and celebrated, such as the Pakistan flag last week being put up over Birmingham library last week. Black people make up 3% of the country, despite the media over-representation. The make up of the protests should not trouble you.
Secondly, what is a community? A street, a village, a town, a city, a country - they are ownership. They require responsibility and obligations. This is what shapes them. It is why the UK was so different to Japan, and both so different to Islamabad. I don’t believe we are just citizens of the world. We are different - shaped by and shaping the community around us. The problem is when people coming into a country/community are prioritised over the community that made it. That is the preferential treatment with welfare and resources, that is the two-tier policing, that is the villainization of British culture over the cultures of others. When the migration numbers are 10m to a country of 58m since the year 2000, that amplifies the problems.
When my Civil Service workplace is draped in flags of Palestine and Pakistan for months, and the first Flag of the Union or the Cross of St George comes with a disciplinary threat - something is very wrong.
Thanks for adding your view point to the mix. I would like to think that the overly white turnout was representative of the ethnic mix of the UK but I have my doubts. I absolutely agree on the last point, something is wrong when flags of other countries are encouraged yet not our own national one. Sadly, I associate that with how it has been misused by those with less honourable motives over the years.
In the UK, black people make up 3% - Asians 11%. I would argue that Asians at the moment are the favoured group so would not be likely to be in these protests. They are also the least likely to integrate (often because of religion). Their flags are prioritised so wouldn't be part of this movement. It's really unfair to point to flag misuse. We don't really tolerate discrimination against minority groups - racists are a tiny group. The flags are mainly used by patriots and sports fans.
I did write something about this -
https://permissiontodisagree.substack.com/p/flags-over-the-citadel?r=5vdqxw
Agreed especially about the land. Problem is everyone is saying it should be like this or like that etc. We've all got an opinion but things don't move on. We need to accept that we humans don't love enough, are greedy and very aggressive. Our chickens are just starting to come home to roost but stop...switch the TV on and we know we're doing our best to sort things out by making more cars, providing more arms to our friends to kill the nasty people (the ones we don't like who are trying to stop us from stealing their land and from ramping up production etc). Lost? Not everyone but they can be weedled out and crushed.
What a big ole mess, eh, Dave?
Yet all of us, at heart want a better world.
100% spot on - I really enjoyed that.
Very well written as ever.
I’m busy on my own little Operation Disrupt. Informing and leafleting the hotel protesters about what that patriotic BritPop BritCard is really about. It’s going very well and these active awakening folk seem to be up for joining the next few dots.
Looking forward to London…
Here are the links.
Trailer
https://youtu.be/ta-QoNRtbF8?si=fu3wdmZ1_eT68BGI
Full film
https://youtu.be/ZFHHOBiUrkg?si=CnIfLfAmAQAdXok1
Thanks.
I watched that film when it came out and thought it very good.
London? The big protest?
Much as I don’t see these protests as doing any good any more and rather fuelling greater tension, what you propose doing sounds more constructive - getting among people (hopefully on both sides) and giving them information to see the bigger picture and how they are all being played.
Yes, that's right. Good luck with your project. It's a very, very big mountain to climb. I'm more of a grass roots (right terminology?) man. I like to talk to people locally and see if I can get them to appreciate what's really going on. Who knows?
I agree wholeheartedly, we are being played and it's leading to an even more divided society 😌
Very sad, hey?💔
I completely relate Julie with your thinking about land ownership. 💖
My husband is Native American and close to his Cherokee roots, so I’ve learned a lot from these beautiful indigenous people. ✨
Native Americans viewed land differently than Europeans. They saw it as a communal resource, deeply connected to their spirituality. Their way of life emphasized community, seasonal use, and sustainability, making individual ownership less practical. For many, land was a sacred gift from the Creator, meant to be respected and shared, not owned.
I have always felt affinity with Native Americans. What an awesome heritage your husband has. Yes I definitely think I should have been born one - it feels like how we were meant to live, taking only what we need and living by season.
We feel we are part of the whole. 🤗
Randy and I don't salute flags 🫡 for the reasons discussed in your article. We do stand and face the flag out of respect when it's being honored, but we don’t put our hands over our hearts or recite a memorized acknowledgment to it.
Brilliant! Exactly how I feel about this but much more eloquently said.👏👏👏
I support your message. I don’t agree with everything you’ve written here but your ability to dig deep and articulate thoughts and issues is perfect.
Thanks. I appreciate you saying that. Who wants an echo chamber? I don’t
I admire you for this.
I confess that the sight of the flags flying from lampposts in our small city made me smile. I think the majority of people in this country welcome them, not because we're racist, but because we're sick and tired of being told how awful we are, how privileged we are and how we should be ashamed of ourselves and our country. The group that put them up have already distanced themselves from the group protesting outside the hotel housing the 'boat people '.
I'm aware that an element are trying to divide us (what's new?), but to see these flags fluttering in the breeze, made me smile.
I don’t think this is a grassroots organic movement but rather, a directed one. My hope is that anyone raising them has at least given that aspect of things some thought.
🔥 🤜🤛
Cheers
AFAIK it's called 'guerrilla marketing'. It's been used loads of times to generate popular enthusiasm for something new, e.g. the Beatles, Red Bull, etc. An early example was more than a century ago when Edward Bernays got women to smoke cigarettes.
I agree wholeheartedly about land. It's a resource like air and water than everyone has free access to, or should do.
Interesting.
Yes it’s a shame. I always feel i should have been born a Native American Indian (fuck knows if that’s PC, do I care?😉😂). Just roaming the land, looking at stars and recounting dreams 😂
Migrants are essential to Western economies as cheap labour. Post brexit the route has changed to small boats but the total numbers are much lower compared to 2000. The issue is not immigration itself but the propaganda being stirred about it https://jowaller.substack.com/p/ladies-and-gentlemen-we-are-watching?utm_source=publication-search
They are deliberately concentrating on ‘small boats’ because of the compelling and emotive visual aspect, for anyone concerned about immigration, these are (excuse the pun) a drop in the ocean when seen as part of the overall figures.
Farage and others deliberately concentrate on this whilst not really talking about other forms of immigration, which is much higher.
Those furthest right on the subject will not be satisfied with an end to ‘small boats’, they will want everyone not born here deported.
Small boats, indeed make good optics to create anger, represent part of immigration which overall is low compared to 2000 in the UK as well as low compared to other countries. In 2021 small boats represented about half of total asylum seeking of overall, about 20,000 of 40,000, which itself was about half that of 2002 which was 80,000.
Legal immigration of course includes many white people which no one is worried about. The right would like everyone who is not white to be deported.
I think that might be true of some of the right (that it’s all about white immigration) but not all of them. As with any political ‘side’, there are many nuances.
Flags seem to be everywhere right now. I went to the Isle of Mull and there was a bloody Palestine protest 😂
That said, I want none banning.
Totally. Banning Union Jacks in work places for example will just get the backs up of all those forced by policy to accept the LBGTQ ones imposed on many a workplace.
The marchers for Palestine are protesting the British government's own complicity, funding and military intelligence support for the racist white settler colonist apartheid regime in Israel; who are currently brutalising the indigenous Palestinians. How else are people meant to express their disagreement with their own country's actions? Why should this be seen as 'bloody', or annoying or useless? Why would anyone who wasn't part of the white western patriarchal interests in fossil fuels etc want to ban such protest?
Maybe she is referring to my comment that I went to Mull and even there ‘there was a bloody Palestine protest’. 🤷♀️
I have no problem with such a protest, I was just meaning that flags of various types seem to be everywhere right now.
Thanks for the clarification Julie.
One reason the 'Israeli war machine' won't be stopped is because our country's governments and media are complicit in it. I was making the point, and commenting on the comment that you were, that marching for Palestine in the UK is therefore not irrelevant nor necessarily ineffectual.
I don’t think any marches are effective, hence why I no longer do them, I do however support people in their right to do so.